tv Charlie Rose PBS January 17, 2012 12:00pm-1:00pm EST
>> rose: welcome to our program. america honors martin luther king, jr. today, we share a personal video by wynn marsalis courtesy of cbs "this morning". >> i began reading dr. king's books and books written about him. there i discovered he was, in fact, a powerful revolutionary, a genius who recast the bible and the constitution to teach us a new and better way of being free by embrang each other. and then, of course, his soaring rhetoric was poetry itself, he was an irresistible lyricist. dr. king galvanized an all-american army from all walks of life.
believers thirsty for change. >> i have a dream today. (cheers and applause) >> rose: also today, america's ambassador to china, gar locke. >> china has enormous challenges and with it come, we believe, responsibilities as well. to its people and to the rest of the world. and while it has gwn significantly economically, we believe that it needs to open up even more and that it has to play by international rules. and that's why you've seen president obama speaking out about how china must play by the rules, that it cannot game the system from which it has benefited significantly and that we believe that american companies and... can help china achieve their objectives and create jobs for the american people at the same time. and we also believe that they need to step up to human rights, to universal values of human
rights. >> rose: we conclude this evening with tom caplan lann, the novelist with the new spy novel call "the spy who jumped off the screen." >> i always wanted to write a thriller but i didn't feel i had enough experience in the world and i didn't feel that i could contribute to thegenre something that was new until the idea of ty hunter came to be. >> rose: wynton marsalis on martin luther king, jr., gary locke of china and tom caplan on spy novels when we continue.
millions and helped change the course of history. his speeches and marches and work led to the passage of historic civil rights legislation. across the country today, there were events commemorating dr. king. president obama marked the day by issuing a call for public service. >> you know, at a time when the country's been going through some difficult economic times, for us to be able to come together as a community, pe om all different walks of life to make sure that we're given back, that's ultimately what makes us the strongest most extraordinary country on earth because we pull together when times are goodut also when times are hard. >> rose: for the occasion, the celebrated composure and jazz musician win to be marsalis has created a video essay. he is my colleague and a contributor for cbs "this morning." using his words and music, marsalis shares his personal experiences of dr. king me also reflects on the complex legacy of the civil rights leader. the piece aired on cbs "this
morning" earlier today and here it is. >> i grew u in louisiana in the 1960s, segregated southern towns. my parents had to deal with "colored-only signs" long after. my grandparents? forget about it. my world was entirely black. i was in the second grade when martin luther king, jr. was assassinated. we knew something bad had happened only because we were sent home early that day. the next year my brother and i went to the whitechool across the tracks. my mher said we shouldn't complain. king had sacrifice so should we. for us integration came at a steep price. just the nicknames alone, "blackky, burned toast" andof course, "nigger." it was tough but it opened our
eyes to a more humane world hidden by segregation. we had more in common with white kids than we thought. simple things like we all hated friday fish squares but loved sloppy joes. still, all the sloppy joes in the world weren't going to extinguish the flames of injustice. (screaming) by the time i became a teen, the street-level perception was king had seemed too willing to make nice for white people. for us, the die chicky clad big afro revolutionary was in. this was 350 years of oppression come crashing down on you and here king is asking you to whisper instead of holler. man, you must be crazy. it was next to impossible to love and forgive. you wanted to hate and scream for revenge. that's why the poster over my bed in high school wasn't king, it was malcolm x. >> black power! >> my understanding of king
would change dramatically one night in new yorkity. at 17 in an up-town jazz club a young white college student and i began arguing about race. he went on and on about the greatness of king and i finally said "look, man, king was an uncle tom." he looked at me as if i had lost my mind and asked if i had read any of king's writings. i ha't,but tried to pretend i had. he pressed on "of course you haven't, because you're black and you all never know anything about your story or culture." at that moment i was ashamed ashamed to admit to myself that the truth of this great man who had just recently improved the quality of my life as an american were largely unknown to me. i began reading dr. king's books and books written about him. there idiscovered he was, in fact, a powerful revolutionary, a genius who recast the bible
and the constitution to teach us a new and better way of feeling free by embracing each other. then, of course,is soaring rhetoric was poultry itself. with an irresistible lyricism, dr. king galvanized an all-american army from all walks of life. believers thirsty for change. >> i have a dream today! (cheers and applause) today too many of us remember him as an idealistic dreamer who led a social movement exclusively for black folks. this does him and us a great disservice dr. martin luther king, jr. is action. der his generalship, civilian forces of labor, clergy,youth and even politicians marched to a string of great victories. the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965
amongst others. these laws made racism illegal and made us all better americans. the legacy of dr. king is all around us. it's all up in us. even back then he preached timeless human fundamentals that we all share. he once said "everybody has the blues. everybody long it is for meaning. everybody needs to love and be love." let's not forget. dr. martin luther king, jr. paid the ultimate price to bring our nation together in the fight for freedom. the power and national unity is something that we've forgotten. it's us to to us to revive and sustain it today and always. >> rose: wynton marsalis on cbs "this morning" this morning.
back in a moment stay with us. >> ros gary locke here, he is the u.s. ambassador to china. he manages one of this country's most important bilateral relationships. he is the first person of chinese descent to hold that post. that and his down-to-earth manner have made locke somewhat of a celeb toy the chinese public. he was previously secretary of commerce then governor to the state of washington. i am pleased to have him near talk about america's relationship with china and the role of an ambassador. so welcome. >> thank you very much, charlie. >> rose: how do you define your job? >> well, it's a management job. it's also advocacy and public relations. the chinese... our presence in china is one of the largest in the world. the embassy itself is the second-largest embassy outside of the one in baghdad. we have about a thousand employees. we have five other consulates throughout china and so the total number of employees representing america in china is
about 1,300, 1,400 and a good one-third of those are american citizens. >> rose: is it changing because we live in an era of instant instant communication? time and distae have shortend? >> clearly that's made communication between governments easier. when secretary clinton can pick up a phone and have secure quality transmission and voice talking with the leaders to, also the use of the internet and certainly communications instead of having to rely on those old cables that go from embassy to washington, d.c. we can talk instantly over the internet. but also now the use of the internet as part of our engagement with the chinese people in terms of getting our message out. as much as the chinese government might want to suppress or limit coverage of, let's say, train accidents or corruption and other hot political issues, the people themselves are able to communicate with each other by blogs and microblogging.
>> rose: and how much censorship is there? >> there's a lot of censorship. you cannot get google, facebook, and many other services in china. and topics that people try to engage in person to person, let's say talking about taiwan or tibetans and dalai lama and various religions will be censored. they have... must have armies of sensors watching over the internet. but people in china are very creative. they come up with cod words and the sensors are maybe one or two steps behind the people as they try to engage in this discussion. >> rose: the people know how to move around the censorship that exists? >> they are constantly trying to do that. they're trying to engage in that conversation but it's a constant battle. >> rose: and human rights today? >> human rights, the situation has gotten worse sin the leadup to the 2008 olympics. you know, the human rights climate has always ebbed and flowed in china up and down but
we seem to be in a down period and it's getting worse. and with the developmes in middle east, arabpring, what happened in egypt and libya the chinese leaders are very fearful of something similar happening within china. so there's been a significant crackdown on dissension, political discussion, even the rights and activities of lawyers who advocate on behalf of people who have been poisoned from food tainted food and medicines. there's a significant crackdown in repression going on within china. >> what do they fear and do they have a reasonable reason to have that kind of fear? >> i think they're fearing the control, the monopoly of the communist party. and they see that as people become more prosperous and especially with the new forms of communication, instant communication they're very concerned that the people ha
higher expectations that the gornment cannot me. so they're very concerned about maintaining domestic tranquility and stability. >> rose: and therefore there is a pell-mell rush to expand the economy in every way they can in order to produce the kind of economic resources that will at least soften the domestic tension. >> that's correct. and so as china enters into some economic head winds, exports are down worldwide because of, obviously, the world economy, both europe and the united states. they cannot continue to rely on exports in manufacturing because many other countries let's say in asia are also source of low-cost manufacturing, whether thailand and vietnam. wages are going up in china and so they're very concerned about keeping the economic engine going so that more people can
rise and aspire and enter e middle-class. hundreds of millions have but there's also great poverty in china. still hundreds of millions of people living only on the equipment of a u.s.ollar day. the disparity between income levels of the urban and the rural creates tension. but they limit the ability of people to move fro the countryside into the cities or for people to move from one part of china to another part of china. so much of china while it's exploding economically is under such tight control and constant protests by local citizens on corrtion, on confiscationof land without adequate compensation and concern about jo. >> rose: how fast will they be able to switch from an export economy to a demand economy? >> they know they have to. they know they cannot rely solely on exports and low-cost manufacturing. they're trying to move up the economic value chain. that means more domestic
consumption and right now you're seeing a large movement, a gradual movement from the countryside to t urban areas. about 50% of the people now live in the cities. and so there will be much more domestic consumption. >> rose: is it a five-year plan? >> it's part of the five-year plan. that's why we think u.s. economic interesting can be served and can benefit from the current five-year plan. more domestic consumption, less exports to the united states. >> rose: and that will be a market for u.s. companies? >> that's right. and the chinese have a love affair with things that are made in the united states. u.s. brands as well as things that say "made in america" or "made in u.s.a." and they have enormous needs. whether from feeding their people to medical devices to technology to clean the air or clean up rivers and streams to nstruction materials and energy efficiency technology. and that's the sweet spot of
america. we make such great products and services, highly valued in great demand by the chinese people that can help the chinese leaders modernize their society, recognize the quality of life for people in china. >> rose: so we should be encouraging them to move from export economy to a domestic demand economy because it's in our interest and their interests? >> their interests and our interests. also we want to start selling more as opposed... selling more to china as opposed to buying so mu from china. >> rose: what prescriptions are now there now on selling to china? >> many of their industries are closed off to foreign and u.s. investment, whether it's in the service sector. >> rose: even if it's less than 50%? >> that's right. even... many sectors are completely forbidden. >> rose: like what? >> energy sector. like steel, energy plants an so forth. the rail industry. then, of course, even in areas
that require a less than 50% ownership, minority, u.s., or foreign ownership, you have to enter into a joint venture. but even in those areas it's very difficult to operate. you have constant disputes with your partner. >> rose: do they require an americanompa in a joint venture with them to share your technology and share all of your sort of know-how? >> they say that they don't but in practice we believe from the complaints that we've received from american companies that there is a requirement to share your technology, your trade secrets, your pents, your technology in order to get that approval from the government to create or be part of a joint venture. we're very, very concerned about that and that's one of the topics that the administration and the white house has been pressing the chinese on to stop this practice. >> rose: how much do you think they're engaged in cyber espionage? >> well, clearly there have been reports and findings that many
of the cyber attacks against government... >> rose: cyber attacks and espionage. >> but the cyber attacks against many of our web sites and our computer systems as well as... in government, the u.s. government as well as companys, private sectors are... emanate from china. >> rose: and do they think it's part of government-owned companies that do it. the hackers somehow report to work for the government? >> well, there is those suspicions. the chese government vehemently denies that. but we also know that the u.s. government agencies as well as u.s. private companies are subject to cyber attack, hacking from organized crime, from europe and other parts of the world. and it's a major topic of concern to both private industry and to governments. >> rose: jim o'neill as you know, from goldman sachs in london who created the term brick countries i saw recently suggesting that there may be a
decline in the chinese level of their g.d.p. grow to 7% or 8%. is there that an assumption of the american ambassador and the people in the american government who make these assessments on their own? >> even the chinese government believes that their growth will slow down from their double digit growth of the last several years to perhaps around 7%, 8%, or 9%. it's in that range. >> rose: still pretty good. >> very good compared to what we're used to. and for the chinese with the huge population, 1.3 billion, just to provide jobs for the people that are coming from the countryside as well as those who are graduating from the colleges and universities they need to have robust growth. otherwise, again, it could lead to social instability and discontent and that's what chinese leaders are most coerned about. >> rose: social tension and discontent and somehow conflict.
>> yes, yes. >> rose: what's the good news about china? >> well, the good news about china is that it is perhaps the world's oldest civilization. that's also one of the newest countries in the world and constantly reinventing itself. the rate of change is just unbelievable. my first trip to china was about 20 years ago in 1988/'89 and i went into cities wherehere were absoluty no skyscrapers the tallest buildings were maybe 12 or 15 stories highs. millions and millions of bicycles. virtually no cars. i remember going into shanghai late at night on my very, very first time into china and i was so afraid that this russian-made bus with dim headlights-- and i guess they don't believe that the alternator can really generate the electricity for the lights and i was afraid that this bus was going to run into these millions of people with bicycles and you had grand kids on... little kids on the
handlebarsnd the baskets of bicycles pedaled by grandparents and girls on the handlebars in the back of the bicycles with their boyfriends on dates and things like that. now it's completely automobiles and skyscrapers among the tallest in the world and places that were just little hamlets of 20,000 people are now metropolitan areas of five or ten million people. it is phenomenal growth using smart phones everywhere you go. the transformation is just astounding. >> when you look at them today with the kind of familiarity you have had and are going to acquire,ow would you characterize how they see-- they see-- thenext 25 years for china. >> i think they have a growing confidence in their ability and because they even put a man into space they are modernizing their
military by leaps and bounds. they built huge cities that rival anything that you've seen anywhere in the world. they have a great deal of confidence and very self-assured in terms of their abilities. but they still, i think, are very... among the people very confident and looking forward to the future. >> rose: some make this distinction that china while it is on a worldwide search to tie up contracts for natural resources which it looks for as a source for theirwn future growth that they are not by nature or instinct imperialistic. >> thahas been said. if you look at their histories they've never really been a country that has tried to invade or go way outside their borders. >> rose: in their region. >> within their region.
>> but they obviously would like greater transparnessy with their military. more contacts with their military and to really understand what their... >> rose: bob gates went over before he left office? >> he went there. we've had many more exchanges. we've had former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, admiral mullen was there. we've also had some of their top military people here in the united states. we need to increase that dialogue so we can avoid mistrust and suspicions and miscalculations. as vice president biden is so fond of saying, his father told him what is worse than an intended conflict is an unintended conflict. and certainly there are issues within regions, north korea and afghanistan, that are of concern to us and we need to engagement of china on all of these issues. and their leadership.
>> rose: and if you look at especially iran and north korea and even votes in the security council, they havenot been there. >> we've been supportive of, for instance, the u.n. sanctions against iran. the council resolution 1929, they are part of the permanent members of the national security council the u.n. that has an additional member, germany, that's been working on the iran nukeuclear... >> rose: but there's a limit to how far they want to go. >> thas correct. they would prefer we would engage more in diplomacy and dialog and are adverse to additional sanctions. >> especially on the exportation of oil. >> the united states government is most concerned about iran's nuclearapability and we really feel that more pressure must be put on iran. >> rose: so what is it they think will work with respect to iran not reaching to have a nuclear capability? >> they've supported the cuent
sanctions that are in place and they would prefer that we continue to press for dialogue and discussion with iran. >> rose: but do they have a sense of the timeline? >> i don't believe that they think that iran poses an immediate threat. >> rose: of gaining 235 that capacity. >> that's correct. >> rose: so their intelligence assess system different than ours? >> well, i can't speak what their intelligence assessments are, i can only report what they have been telling us at the government-to-government level. while they've been supportive of sanctions in the past, they prefer that the united states and the international commuty further engage with iran and are reluctant to impose further sanctions. >> rose: here is republican presidential candidate mitt romney on this program talking about currency and china and what he would do on his first day in office. >> rose: >> the relationship with china has been such that over the years they have without question
manipulated their currenc to hold down the prices of their goods in anrtificial way. they have stolen intellectual property massively. they have hacked into our computers and stolen science and technology and that can't be allowed to continue. i happen to believe we establish a better relationship with china if they see us as people who are intelligent who will stand up for our rights. >> rose: don't they see us that way already? >> i think they have to be chuckling and looking at us saying "can you believe this silly americans allowing china to get away with it?" there's no question but that they have wiped out please? this country in part by virtue of this practices. we have to say that can't continue. the same time china needs access to america's market and enormous trading partners. we want access to their market. don't forget they sell thus much stuff, we sell them that much stuff. they don't want to havthat go away. >> rose: what did you think of what governor romney said? >> we have the same concerns about the currency and we've seen just within about the last
year almost a 10% appreciation of their currencyut the position of the unit states is clear that the curncy is still undervalued and it has to appreciate and do so at a faster rate. >> rose: what are we prepared to see that happen? >> well, we've seen progress over the last year and a half already and when you combine the effects of inflation their currency has risen by almost 10%. of course, many needs to be done. but we are engaging with the chinese and we believe that because we have such overlapping mutual interests that we need to work together and we have to engage in dialogue and which is part of my reason for being back here in the united states over these next several days in preparation for the chinese vice presidential visit to the united states next month in which many of these topics are being oppressed to the chinese. >> rose: tell about him, the man likely to be the next president of china. >> well, i think he's a very
personable individual. he gets along very, very well with vice president biden and they spent many days together. is he's had a record of accomplishment at different provincial and municipal levels but we rlly don't know that much about him. we don't know how he would respon to some of these economic issues, which is why it's so important that we establish that relationship as quickly as possible. >> rose: who is he close to america that's not in government? >> well, he fondly remembers his days in iowa. he was here about two decades ago when he was a government county official and he had an exchange program and spent some time with families in iowa. so he has fond memories of the midwest and very familiar with our agricultural sector. >> rose: what do we know about him and his world view, how it might be different from hu jintao? >> we don't know because the party structure is such a
collective and they... so many of the decisions are made behind closed doors that you really don't know the positions of the individuals within, for instance, the politburo and the standing committee of the politburo. >> rose: which is where the power is. >> which is where the power is. and so it's going to take a while. it's going to take a while to really understand how he might move forward and once he becomes president it's... if the past is any guide the first year or so decisions might be rather reserved and you will not really see any change or departure. >> rose: is there some hope as you look at this that even though we've had chinese students for a long time who come to our universities that that's what will help change the relationship, that people will rise to the level of leadership because hu jintao was put into succession by deng chao peng
before he died. and so you would hope that at some point people with a different kind of educational experience outside of china not seared by the cultural revolution or even the beginning of deng xiaopg when he started rebuilding china with great focus will have a different attitude about china's role in the world, china's relationship in the united states and china's attitude about human rights and security. >> i think the more exposure the chinese have to america-- and we have some 800,000 visitors from china every year the united states on business, on pleasure and, by the way, they spend some $6,000 per visit and it's an enormous source of jobs here in the united states with all the tourism. the united states is the... one of the largest destinaons for chinese outside of europe as a whole and outside of asia. but we also have about 160,000 chinese students
studying in america every year. and i believe that exposure to ou democracies, our freedom, our openness as a society whets their appetite, quite frankly, for similar freedoms and progress and openness within china. >> rose: what the people in the arab spring call universal values. >> yes. and i think that appetite for universal human right s is growing stronger in china everyday. >> rose: so what do you worry about? >> well, i... the united states and china are becoming interdependent economically. so much of... china has a great interest in a rising prosperity in america. a strong, economic economic recovery of our economy because the reality is that so much of what americans buy is made in other countries and a good percentage of that comes from china so that china knows that their economic health depends on
a strong world economy and with europe in the doldrums they're looking to the united states. we in the united states, some 800,000 jobs, are dependent on american-made goods and services being sold to china. from our soybeans to airplanes to machinery. and so we have an interest in greater prosperity of the chinese, which creates more markets for us. but at the same time we cannot ignore our values like on human rights where we see the climate getting worse in china. >> rose: but is there anything we can do? >> i think we can continue to press the chinese government as well as speaking out to the chinese public and in meeting with the chinese people and exposing them our american values, our traditions, our beliefs and our way of life. whether it's forms with... forums with university students and getting our message out through televisi shows.
and a lot of american shows are viewed in china. >> rose: including this one. >> including news programs like yours. and also popular television shows, movies, andxchange of entertainers and athletes and american college students and peace corps volunteers and so forth. in >> in the end is our greatest export our culture and values? >> i think it is our values, our openness as a society, our belief in diversity. i go around china talking about our family history. >> rose: personal family history? what is that? >> my grandfather came to the united states in the late 1800s, worked as a house boy for a family. >> rose: in seattle? >> in the seattle area. in exchange for english lessons. went back to china, had a family got married what my father was born. my grandfather came back to the united states to work and sent money to support his family in
china. eventually he went back to china and brought the whole fily over and my father served in world war ii, part of the normandy invasion. >> rose: your father was at d-day. >> not quite d-day. three or four or five. >> rose: my father, too. >> and was part of the march to berlin under general patton. after the war was over he went back to hong kong and m my mom and brought her the united states and all of us kids were born in the seattle area. but our story is that it's because of the diversity and openness and freedoms of america that enabled our family to succeed and realize the american dream and that america has been a beacon for people and immigrants all around the world for generations after generation after generation in search of freedom, hope, and equality and opportunity and that openness, that embrace of diversi, of
people, culture, and religions has made america great and it can also make chi even me prosperous. >> rose: is there any reason to believe they won't be able to have the same kind of technology innovation, thate hav >> well, they're going to have to improve their protection of intellectual property rights in order to do that. if people can simply get away with stealing and copying the ideas, the discoveries, the inventions of others without adequate compensation that will dampen the spirit for innovation and inventionithin china. and if they don't have stro intellectual property rights, one of two things will happen. either the people... the innovators of china will not innovate or they will do that innovation some place else, whether it's in taiwan, whether it's in korea, japan, or the united states or singapore. and so i think that as china moves away from a source of cheap manufacturing into more
innovation they know they've got to step up enforcement of intellectual property rights. >> it's said that the primary drive for intellectual properties will be the success of chinese tecology companies. as they're successful they have things they want to protect and they'll insist on more protection for intellectual operties. >> i've heard from just as many chinese entrepreneurs who have complained about the inadequate protections for intellectual property rights as i have from american companies. it's going to be the combination of both foreigners as well as chinese companies and innovators within china that will succeed in getting us greater protections for intellectual property rights. >> it's said that the president that you serve, president obama, the american people, that we have had a china policy that's pivoted to look towards the east. explain that to me and what are the elements of ? >> well, the united states has always been a global power in the pacific region going back to
the 1800s and certainly during world war ii and the decade since world war ii. and many of our allies are in the pacific... asia-pacific region, whether the philippines to australia and other territories and lands so we have an interest in asia and the pacific region. and given the reduction in the defense budget as mandated by the congress and as we move to a more nimble defense posture we have... cannot overlook the pacific... area pacific region and given the hot spots that are now within asia, whether north korea, afghanistan and elsewhere we need to put more focus on that region. >> rose: so they want people to be more involved in that region
so they're not dependent on china or at the mercy china. >> well, they are strengthening thei relations, economic and strategic relations with china at the same time. they want stronger relations with the united states. so it's really not a matter of the united states coming back into the region. the united states has always been part of that region. >> i understand that. but at the sa time everybody... was it dr. kissinger who would constantly remind you that china has always been... the u.s. has always had a china policy. u.s. hatz always had an attention to that region and it's not new and therefore if you say that it's a misnomer. on the other hand, there's increased emphasis, it's clear, from how the president articulates his view of the world and he's done that from day one. >> we need to have a stronger presence in the asia-pacific region. >> you need to understand what the 20th century looks like and how it's shaping up an where the power centers are. >> that's right, because almost 60% of our markets are in the asia-pacific region so we have to be there. >> rose: and we have to pivot
america's interests there in order to shape the future. >> that's correct. that's correct. >> rose: the chinese fear, as you know... i'm sure they've expressed this to you. some in their society would say the u.s. wants to contain us. >> there is that notion in some of the public... within the public but from many of the chinese leaders they are understanding that we have long been engaged in asia and will remain so and that we have strong interests with china and that we have multily beneficial goals and overlapping global interests whether, for instance, it's trying to halt the proliferation of nuclear weapons in north korea, to a stable middle east, to making sure that theuropean financl crisis does not get out of control. >> rose: swhat do you think the concerns are about the united states? as expressed to our ambassador there.
>> they don't really have any specific concerns over the united states. they think sometimes they're trying to mettle in their internal affairs. >> rose: the human rights question? >> human rights. >> rose: currency in is. >> no, they think the statements about the currency are politically motivated and yet i think most of the financial leaders from throughout the world hold the same view that we do, that their currency is undervalued and needs to appreciate. but they don't want us meddling in what they consider their core interests like tibet or taiwan or on human rights and we feel that we're standing up for universally accepted norms of human rights and that what we're speaking for are things that even the chinese government has committed to with the signings that they have made within their own constitution. but these are universal rights.
universal values that we think we have to speak up for. >> rose: as you know, form t former deputy secretary of state made a speech where he said "is china ready to be a stake holder in the world"? have ty answered that question to your satisfaction. >> we would like them to take on greater responsibilities. we welcome a strong and prosperous china that assumes a greater role in world affairs. we're seeing some of thatow, whether it was in the sudan. but a lot of it is motivated with their economic self-interests because sudan is a source of significant oil from for them. but we had also... and they are involved in some of the activities and the peacekeeping efforts and initiatives on economic initiatives to help stabilize afghanistan. we would like to see even more. >> rose: thank you for coming. a pleasure to have you on the program. >> thank you very much. >> rose: gary locke is the also dpror the united states to china. having formerly been governor of the state of washington and also secretary of mmerce in the obama administration.
we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: thomas caplan is here. as you know, i have a bit of a cold and a worse voice. he has written several books including "line of chance" and "parallelogram." the latest work is a thriller called "the spy who jumped off the screen." i am pleased to have my friend tom caplan back at this table. welcome. >> charlie, great to be back with you. >> rose: here's what's teresting about this. you begin withharacter, not narrative. >> that's true. begin with a character, ty hunter who is 32, i think, when we meet him. the number one film star in the rld, who uses that fame really as a cloak and is able to deflect spicion from him as he does lots of undercover missions. >> rose: at the request of the president. >> at the request the president. >> rose: take me back further, though. this is a man who was a military hero. >> yes, a secret military hero. member of a specialson teams. >> rose: seals or something?
>> yes. and international missions with s.b.s. ands.a. from england. >> rose: how did he go from that to movie star in >> he had an accident at the end of his military career. he had an accident. he went to rehab, he had to have lots of plastic surgery and emerged... although always a nice looking guy more of a heartthrob and by accident the man whwas filming an army commercial at walter reed hospital when he was being rehabilitated later went on to become a very famous director and he hired ty and when we met ty he's now finished his fourth picture, exhausted, waiting for sabbatical and maybe to fall in love. >> rose: and what happens? after we meet ty? >> rose: no, after he's waiting for his fourth picture. >> he's at the cannes film festival he's invitedecause such a celebrity would be on to the megayacht of a man called ian
santell. >> rose: not a nice man. but an interesting man. >> a man who... i think what's interesting about him to me is he's a man who rationalizing his actions so that even though they might have very evil consequencess he has managed to convince himself that they're for the good. >> rose: and also has a kind of protege on board. mr. phillip frost? >> mr. phillip frost. >> rose: what is he? >> ice in his veins. a man a certain allure of a highly disciplined military type who seems to be doing good things but whose purposes and actions are... those actions are very devious aren't they? >> and he has a lover, a woman? >> frost's lover? ian santell's god daughter. the daughter of a don at cambridge who's now dead. a jewelry designer for a great jewelry house in rome.
>> rose: and ty becomes smitten with her? >> most people would become smitten with her. even i'm smitten with her. so that's... >> rose: and so do you know where the plot's going all the way to the e or have your characters and they let them tell you where they're going? >> the characters tell me where it's going but in this case i have a general outline. i didn't know everything. it basically came to me i two different bursts. i was thinking about a character for a new novel, i always wanted to write a thriller but i didn't feel i had enough experience in the world and i didn't feel that i could contribute to the genre something that was new until the idea of ty hunter came to be. and that came when i was driving in the car and i thought she's a spy and a movie star. and then i made a start at that. i think it was a false start. then i got the idea of a they
felt of nuclear weapons and after they became a little bit older. more settled in his career and the whole plot just took off. >> rose: if you talk to people in national security, that's the great fear. >> of course. >> rose: somebody prepared to use them will steal them. not that they will get them because it's not easy to make them. they'll steal them. steal them from pakistan or russia. >> or in this case, yes, they were secreted at the time the soviet union collapsed. i thought of that, another burst i called a friend of mine and said "who knows about these things?" and i said is that possible that this could happen? and he said yes and i thought... i was frozen with fear. >> rose: so we're off and running and we know our characters. what happens? how do you do your research? how do you fill in the blanks? i'm assuming you've been to the hotel. i'm assuming you have been to all the locations you have? you know certain... you know
things, you know people. >> most of the places in the book i have been to and that didn't mean that i didn't have to go back to do research to see what what sort of tree grew in a certain place which was easy to do today with the internet or find books that you have in your library or? somebody else's library about that. i did a lot of that. particular subjects of nuclear arms and the soviet union's breakup. it's a combination. i've been to gibralter a lot but i imagined certain things in jib rater that may or may not be there. >> rose: the forward is written by bill clinton. >> that's true. >> rose: president clinton. you said an interesting thing about him. that he has an appetite for friendship. >> yesi think that's true. >> rose: what did you mean? >> well, he's just... he loves people and heeally... in the nicest possible way want the best for everyone. he's one of those people... in b.c. there's a complete absence
of shaden frayed da. he really does like... schadenfreude. he wants to see people succeeds. it comes in large part from his mother. the thing that i remember, learned a lot about life from her when we were young. she has such a positive attitude and there could be five pieces of bad news in a day and one piece of good news and she's going to g forward were the good news. >> rose: playing to the good news and go forward. >> rose: what makes a friendship that has the length of the one that you have with bill clinton? >> i think the length of it is probably because for some chemical reason you get along and beyond that we have a lot of interests in common but enough different interests. when we were in college, georgetown, foreign service school, he was in politics and very... interested in politics, interested in government.
so was i but more interested in literature. he was more interested in politics but also interested in it will are ra which you a. >> he was interested in politics and you were interested in literature. did you know you wanted to write? >> yes. from about the age of 15, something like that. 14, 15. >> rose: what was it about writing. >> just enjoyed playing with words. i enjoyed hearing them and i probably was very influenced by president kennedy enwhifs young as a child. >> rose: president clinton said he was influenced by jack ken i do go into politics and you were motivated by jack knedy's interests in words and language. >> and also probably by his grt ability. rose: i think it may have been the president who said that churchill mobilized the english language in ordertor... >> when he gave churchill honorary citizenship.
marshalled the english language and set it to battle. >> rose: back they. the president wanted them to do this... >> the president in the book. >> rose: right. what's his sglapl garland white. >> rose: he wanted to do this because of... because you can be visible and invizable >> that's the point. he said it's not that you're invisible exactly, rather you're invisible because youere damned visible. and the whole point of t gee that he can penetrate milieus where most people would stand out any other agent because of his great celebrity. as i said earlier, it just reflects suspicion and he had been invited on to this yacht not knowingnything about it and then he's asked to go back to repenetrate theair because they have no other way in. >> rose: only someone with his stardom would be able to be in association with the people he needs to investigate. >> yes. and also it's interesting because there's been a certain
privatization of foreign policy and evil in the modern world and not only are we threatened by other nation states as we were when i was growing up but by shadowy groups and maybe inviduals who would provide weapons to shadowy groups. it becomes harder to choose your target and harder to penetrate it because the lair is much tighter. the groups are much tighter. and ty can do that. >> rose: what is the central imperative of thrillers? >> you should turn the page and be eager to see... well, a thriller, something is about to happen and will it be prevented. so the imperative of it is that. so the other imperative is that you want to be propelled through the pages in some sense that the human beings are behaving in a way that human beings would understand under these circumstances. not what the actions superimposed upon them and that's harder but more fun.
and it's to give the reader information but a good time. >> writing... >> rose: do you think writing is a learned profession oar combination of nature/nurture. >> like everything i think some people have a greater... mathematics, some people have an aptitude. but if youo something a lot you get good at them. >> rose: the more you do it the better you get it. >> had i been sent to school at juilliard at the age of five i would not have become pavarotti but i night have been able to hold a note. >> rose: i suppe you may have become an on rhett i can director or something. so when you look at the life you're living now, friends with the president, writing successful novels, what's the great dream? >> just to keep doing it one book at a time. i mean, i really am enjoying it and i... right now i'm doing a new book about ty hunter, i hope
the do those for a while. as i say, one book at a time. >> rose: it sounds perfect for the movies. >> that would be grea >> rose: what do you do to make that happen? >> i don't do much. i mean my agent has had lots of inquiries and i think he's just waiting... the book's just come out. >> rose: you have been asked by someone to name the top five auths and you said the obvious ones, shakespeare, fitzgerald, maupl, kipling, williams and t.s. elliot. what do you lik about him? >> the images that just haunt you. i lived in england for a while and sometimes i would think on the afternoon history is now in england i often think, you know, i have measured out my life with coffee spoons. it burns in your mind.
>> rose: d you like troll sflop >> i do. but i haven't read all of trollop. >> rose: friends of mine are often trying to find the common denominator between culture on the one hand and the scientific world on the other. >> brilliant. >> rose: my thanks to you. >> thank you very much. >> rose: "the spy who jumped off the screen" is a novel. thank you for coming. >> thank you for for having me. >> rose: the book is called "the spy who jumped off the sdren" tom caplan. a forward by former president clinton. captioning sponsored by rose communications